Possible Causes for Autoimmune Disorders

The Reason why I say Vaccinations are responsible for Autoimmune Disorders and allergies, is the fact that most vaccinations Use Live Viruses which are injected directly into the blood stream to create an immune response for a future infection. ...
I do believe there is a major link between vaccination and auto immune disorders, The question is; is there a pattern in people?

There are 2 things I'd like to point out here:

1) Vaccines are usually injected into MUSCLE, not directly into the bloodstream. Granted, I supposed it's possible for the needle to hit a blood vessel and inject into it, but the vessels in the muscle are small, so most (all?) of the injection contents should go into the muscle tissue. To be honest, I'm not aware of any vaccines that are meant to be injected directly into the blood stream...

2) Most vaccines do not contain live viruses.

That being said, I do wonder if there is a link between vaccines and auto-immune disorders/allergies.

I am a big fan of vaccines and all the good they've done, and I firmly believe that vaccinations overall do much more good than harm for the population as a whole. But that doesn't rule out the possibility of an individual experiencing more harm than good right?

Hopefully someday they'll be able to predict ahead of time who will experience significant adverse effects from vaccinations - then we could have the benefits for the population at large, while avoiding the downsides for those individuals who may not react well to them.

[MeibomianGlandman]

The Reason why I say Vaccinations are responsible for Autoimmune Disorders and allergies, is the fact that most vaccinations Use Live Viruses which are injected directly into the blood stream to create an immune response for a future infection. Weather or not the Manufactured Viruses in labs have the correct antigens on them or the Human Immune System recognizes them correctly, is another story. Its the build up of these antigens that creates an immune reaction to things that may or may not be healthy to the individual. What if you injected chocolate directly into someones bloodstream, then I believe someone would develop an allergy to chocolate due to the fact that it completely passed the natural barriers to the body through man made means IE; Needle.

What is the Proof of this theory; I have no proof I may add just a hunch,

A very dear friend of my suffers from myasthenia gravis

OF Which His auto immune condition Never appeared Until he was given Routine Vaccinations! Mandated by Law!
These Vaccinations may also be affecting the endocrine system possibly that leads to poor immune response.

Like his immune system attacking his nervous system. He has spouts of Complete lack of motor control, Loss of breathing, or hand eye coordination, he also loses the ability to talk or swallow, He would be dead today without the use of Steroids, that suppress his immune system similar to a cancer or aids patient.

I do believe there is a major link between vaccination and auto immune disorders, The question is; is there a pattern in people?

I'm just wondering NotADryEye if your family members were ever been tested for iodine deficiency before they started their medications for Hashimoto's?

Logan x

I was tested. I was not iodine deficient. Serum.

Also, it is more then histamines that the body produces during stressful events. Much much more.

I didn't live with my paternal aunt.

Fundamentally I believe autoimmune disease manifestation is much more complex then you suggest. Think multiple causation, like the Pelopennesian wars.

[wagnermid]

[QUOTE=Logandly;88635]Hi Wagnermid,

You can't really blame yourself for having RA since we live in a culture in which we were inundated from the time we were young to take anti-biotics and anti-biotics were marketed as a cure-all for everything.

That doesn't apply to me either, I had my first dose of antibiotics at 14 when I had appendicitis, I guess what I'm trying to point out is it's not that simple. I know overuse of antibiotics causes problems, but correct appropriate use saves lives. My son's eye condition is unrelated to auto immune disorders but given a choice of him dying from pneumonia (as he nearly has done on several occasions) or having antibiotics I know what I choose.

[wagnermid]

[QUOTE=Logandly;88680] In the case of family history though, let's say hypothetically that the cause of the disease was actually an internal and/or external parasite, then living with family members who have been exposed to the same parasite would predispose them towards developing the same disease, even if they weren't genetically related by DNA but because they are in close proximity, sharing the same food, being in the same space, sharing the same hygienic environment etc.

That theory doesn't hold for me, we migrated to Australia, they remained in Scotland!

[littlemermaid]

problem absorbing iodine

Logan, have you been tested genetically iodine deficient? who does the testing? what kind of test did you have? was it a genetic test, or was it serum?

[Logandly]

As much as I agree that our environment contributes to various autoimmune and other diseases, IMO the genetic factor can not be ignored when it is implicated. For example, in my family there is a history of thyroid disease, Hashimoto's hypothyroidism. It was triggered and became active after experiencing a traumatic event, one of the ways Hashimoto's manifests. This happened to my paternal aunt about 15 years ago and to me a few years ago.

So wagnermid you can't really take responsibility for having RA. It is an accident of birth or karma, which ever way you choose to look at it. We are just fortunate now that there are treatments and compassionate healthcare providers who have the tools to help.

Certainly there are a lot of factors, especially with one's DNA and even researchers think alcoholism has a genetic factor. In the case of family history though, let's say hypothetically that the cause of the disease was actually an internal and/or external parasite, then living with family members who have been exposed to the same parasite would predispose them towards developing the same disease, even if they weren't genetically related by DNA but because they are in close proximity, sharing the same food, being in the same space, sharing the same hygienic environment etc.

Also I think one might consider a difference between Hypothyroidism and Hashimoto's Hypothyroidism. Around the world during the early 1900s, there was an iodine deficiency which made people develop hypothyroidism, which could be reversed by iodine supplementation, but Hashimoto's is a rarefied disease in which there is an inflammation of the thyroid gland by "unknown factors". Certainly people can be exposed to toxins and parasites within the environment (eg, unsterile water, food sources, handling of farm animals etc) that could affect very young children who don't have the ability to fight off the toxins and parasites which could manifest when the child becomes older as an adult. This would point to an environmental factor, not necessarily genetic, although some people can have a problem absorbing iodine (a genetic aspect) such as myself, in which I take a Kelp supplement to compensate for my body's lack of absorption of iodine from food sources.

During times of traumatic events, the body produces more histamine, which creates an inflammatory response, and coupled with an already existing iodine deficiency can worsen the symptoms of hypothyroidism. I'm just wondering NotADryEye if your family members were ever been tested for iodine deficiency before they started their medications for Hashimoto's?

Logan x

[spmcc]

Nobody knows what causes autoimmune diseases. Some *ideas* include

* infection - bacterial? Viral? Who knows?
* medications - we don't know which one(s)
* environmental exposures/irritants - again, we don't know which one(s)
* genetics

One side of my family has 3 people with MS and 2 with RA. Two of the people with MS are involved (as participants) in research at our university's medical school. One has been involved for 20+ years.

Luckily we have smart, serious researchers doing import work to try to figure things out. We should be looking to them for medical help and not towards some self-proclaimed "expert" who is only qualified because he/she googles terms on the Internet.

One day I hope we have some answers so that we can prevent and better treat autoimmune diseases.

I don't think it is due to occasional antibiotic use, that wouldn't explain my family history including my grandmothers siblings, they were all born in the 1890's, and had the same disease before antibiotics were in use.

As much as I agree that our environment contributes to various autoimmune and other diseases, IMO the genetic factor can not be ignored when it is implicated. For example, in my family there is a history of thyroid disease, Hashimoto's hypothyroidism. It was triggered and became active after experiencing a traumatic event, one of the ways Hashimoto's manifests. This happened to my paternal aunt about 15 years ago and to me a few years ago.

So wagnermid you can't really take responsibility for having RA. It is an accident of birth or karma, which ever way you choose to look at it. We are just fortunate now that there are treatments and compassionate healthcare providers who have the tools to help.

[Logandly]

I guess it is hurtful to me as it makes me feel there is an implication of culpability in my having RA. I am sitting here in hospital having my monthly Interleukin-6 (IL-6) receptor antagonist infusion for Rheumatoid Arthritis. I don't think it is due to occasional antibiotic use, that wouldn't explain my family history including my grandmothers siblings, they were all born in the 1890's, and had the same disease before antibiotics were in use. I know I am fortunate to live in a time where I don't have to suffer the way they did , and I can live my life hopefully free from the debilitating consequences and early death that they endured. This is wholly due to science, high level medical research, amazing dedicated health care professionals and our government who assist by funding the medication.

I don't think it is helpful to bundle all autoimmune disorders together. They are distinct disease processes with different genetic factors, and different disease processes. There may be links between them but not in most people which is why biologic drugs that work for RA don't work for Lupus for example.

Hi Wagnermid,

You can't really blame yourself for having RA since we live in a culture in which we were inundated from the time we were young to take anti-biotics and anti-biotics were marketed as a cure-all for everything. We are constantly inundated by advertising and pharma drugs and it's hard to tell the trees from the forest when most of us aren't trained in reading and understanding medical text and lexicons. Definitely my eye problems lead me to self-discovery and to question traditional methods of treatment that weren't working for me, so please don't blame yourself for your RA.

I just think it's wonderful that we have the internet to spread knowledge- how else could similar suffers be able to meet and share experiences?

You are right that all autoimmune disorders cannot be grouped together, but then I wonder how many people are misdiagnosed with autoimmune disorders? After all symptoms can look the same on the outside and when it comes down to it, often it can be a guessing game for most doctors- even the well-trained.

Anyhow, I wanted to share with you the following articles about RA, pain management with the use of the nattokinase enzyme. Please take a look:

http://www.atmph.org/article.asp?iss...last=Chaiyasit
" The case is a female with known rheumatoid arthritis for more than 10 years and under control by standard medication therapy. The problem of thrombocytosis (with persistent platelet count >500,000/mm 3 ) was observed in this case. This case was consulted to the nutritional clinic for a possible role of neutraceutical medicine in managing of the thrombocytosis problem. At the starting point, the erythrocyte sedimentation rate (ESR) of the patient is about 100 mm/h. In this case, natto yeast supplementation was used. After 1 month, the interesting finding is the dramatically reducing of the platelet count to the normal range (150,000/mm 3 ). "

http://www.shareguide.com/pain.html
"Nattokinase is a proteolytic (protein-dissolving) enzyme derived from a Japanese food known as natto, a preparation of soybeans that has undergone fermentation with a bacterium known as Bacillus subtilis natto. Proteolytic enzymes have analgesic effects in addition to their well-recognized anti-inflammatory and anti-edemic properties, indicating they may have a role to play in pain management. Enzyme-derived analgesia is based on inhibition of the inflammatory cascade as well as exerting a direct influence on nociceptors. Enzymes increase speed of healing and pain relief, and decrease inflammation."

"Another mechanism by which nattokinase may help control pain is through its actions as a fibrinolytic enzyme, which means it breaks down fibrin deposits by inactivating plasminogen activator inhibitor 1 (PAI-1). Studies show that it has fibrinolytic activity 4-times more potent than plasmin, the body's natural fibrinolytic enzyme. The fibrinolytic system is closely linked to control of inflammation, and plays a role in disease states associated with inflammation.

In animal studies, nattokinase can reduce markedly the thickening of blood vessel walls that normally occurs following an injury to the blood vessel lining (endothelium). In addition, nattokinase leads to dissolution of clots that build inside vessel walls as responses to injuries. Enzyme therapy is used to digest the fibrin and reverse the inflammation, which is the likely mechanism by which nattokinase may help to reduce pain."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19358933
""In summary, this study showed that oral administration of nattokinase could be considered as a CVD nutraceutical by decreasing plasma levels of fibrinogen, factor VII, and factor VIII."

[wagnermid]

Saying that auto-immune disease and citing evidence that there is a strong possibility that it is derivative of anti-biotic use was not meant to be hurtful.

I guess it is hurtful to me as it makes me feel there is an implication of culpability in my having RA. I am sitting here in hospital having my monthly Interleukin-6 (IL-6) receptor antagonist infusion for Rheumatoid Arthritis. I don't think it is due to occasional antibiotic use, that wouldn't explain my family history including my grandmothers siblings, they were all born in the 1890's, and had the same disease before antibiotics were in use. I know I am fortunate to live in a time where I don't have to suffer the way they did , and I can live my life hopefully free from the debilitating consequences and early death that they endured. This is wholly due to science, high level medical research, amazing dedicated health care professionals and our government who assist by funding the medication.

I don't think it is helpful to bundle all autoimmune disorders together. They are distinct disease processes with different genetic factors, and different disease processes. There may be links between them but not in most people which is why biologic drugs that work for RA don't work for Lupus for example.

[spmcc]

If you read the rest of the study you will see what the researchers noted in the conclusion. That study was conducted because at that time information was scarce and they did an investigative study.

Mr. Logan,

You're dealing with savvy people here. We routinely get people espousing supplements, honey, teas, enemas, sauerkraut, dog urine etc. to treat/cure our conditions. That's fine. People can try what they want. But when you come across as an authority and/or doctor to DEZ folks, you cross a line.

Thankfully, people like you don't last long on DEZ. We don't drink your kool-aid.

Cheers,
Sheila

[littlemermaid]

I find it interesting how you attack posters who don't agree with your blind faith in anti-biotics and pharma drug usage and make all sorts of untrue statements about vitamin supplements without any evidence.

Logandly, could you put the links up you're not happy with for the Moderator?

I clicked the James Howenstine MD link but just got an advert for his products.

[Logandly]

You need to take your own advice and read the fine print.

If you read the rest of the study you will see what the researchers noted in the conclusion. That study was conducted because at that time information was scarce and they did an investigative study.

The only peer-reviewed article you cited above (Article 3) concludes with:

Isn't it interesting how you left that bit of info out of your post?

And BTW your stance that antibiotics cause autoimmune diseases is just THEORY too.

This thread is about the possible causes of autoimmune disease and yes I supposited a THEORY. I don't pretend to be God and know everything. And all my sources, unlike the popular science articles you cited made for mass media, had multiple medical resources behind them.

[spmcc]

Article 3: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23834758
"BACKGROUND:
The intestinal microbiota has been proposed to play a pathogenic role in coeliac disease (CD). Although antibiotics are common environmental factors with a profound impact on intestinal microbiota, data on antibiotic use as a risk factor for subsequent CD development are scarce."

You need to take your own advice and read the fine print.

The only peer-reviewed article you cited above (Article 3) concludes with:

non-causal explanations for this positive association cannot be excluded.

Isn't it interesting how you left that bit of info out of your post?

And BTW your stance that antibiotics cause autoimmune diseases is just THEORY too.