7 months on Dr. Holly drops: the numbers are in

[Rebecca Petris]

I am still confused as to whether I should give Dr Holly's drops a real go.

Rory, if you have enough of a problem to still be on DEZ, seems to me you don't have anything to lose by trying?

I have to say that I am very put off by the excessive flaking of Dwelle and Dakrina

Something to keep in mind: There is no reason to use more than a very small drop at a time, because your eye surface can hold very little. If you apply a very small amount it should be a fairly simple matter to wipe any excess afterwards with a damp cloth or tissue before it has time to crystallize.

I....only really have bad symptoms in aircon and central heating.

My favourite current drops are basic.. Refresh soothe and protect...and Refresh contacts (with contacts).

Usually when I hear this from someone I suggest they start with NutraTear. People who have used almost exclusively the very light drops like refresh or theratears and whose main complaint is they give only brief relief tend to like NutraTear the best of the three. Added benefit, no potential for residue because it's far lower concentration.

I dont like to use eyedrops at all if possible...and I believe the more that you use the more problems you will have.

I agree. Another reason in favor of giving it a whirl.

[Rory]

Thank you for the very helpful replies...just a couple more Qs;

1. Do they all have the same science behind them?

I obviously want to use the most effective one. I am sure that I could as you say wipe the lids after appyling to ensure no flakiness...and would be happy to do this if I thought that either Dwelle or Dakrina were more effective than Nutratear. I see that it is about 20% as concentrated as the other two.

However as I dont need to heal any corneal layers, perhaps Nutratear is strong enough for my form of dry eyes?

2. Normally preservative containing drops say to discard after 30 days, is it the same with these?

Thanks.

[Rebecca Petris]

1. Do they all have the same science behind them?... I obviously want to use the most effective one.

The Dwelle and Dakrina are distinct for the very high oncotic pressure.

If one of the three were the "most effective" full stop, then there would be no need for the others, but as a practical matter each has a distinct 'niche'. I've followed these drops for more than 6 years and known hordes of people using them and while some, like me, use a combination, many either use just one which is the only one that works best for them, or they start with one and 'graduate' to another for longer term maintenance.

I'm definitely a 'less is more' person myself. If I could manage on NutraTear, I absolutely would use only NutraTear, and in fact there have been periods where I've been able to. But most of the time my right eye needs Dwelle morning and night.

2. Normally preservative containing drops say to discard after 30 days, is it the same with these?

No. I'm not sure about that 'normally' either? At least in the US, there is no statement of that sort on the vast majority of preservative containing drops - the opposite actually, it's unpreserved products in a bottle (like unisol 4) that say to discard within 30 days. As long as you take proper care of the bottle and keep it tightly capped when not in use, store it at room temperature, keep it clean, etc, there's no reason why it can't last far longer. I'd be embarrassed to admit how long I keep bottles around.

[Rojzen]

Rory - - I think it is possible for a patient to be unaware that his/her corneas are, in fact, compromised to some degree. Anyone with low tear production or abnormal tear film quality runs a good chance of getting stressed corneas. . .The stress may be insufficient to cause erosions or more serious changes, but it is pretty universally understood that defective tear films go along with changes in, for example, the goblet cells that sit pretty closely over the corneas . . .Also, some features of corneal change are not generally measured in a doctor's office. . .It's only the gross abnormalities that most docs feel are worth addressing. . .

I mention this because if you are thinking that Dwelle and the other Dr. Holly drops are not right for you because patients often cite these drops for their remarkable record in healing pretty serious corneal conditions that you don't have, go ahead and try the products anyway. . .To the extent that your corneas could probably get even healthier, and to the extent that improved corneal epithelium can make a TREMENDOUS difference in how dry eye patients feel, you may get some benefits you didn't even believe possible. . .I switched from Restasis to FreshKote and Dwelle at a time when I had no detectable corneal damage; What I got, as a result, was nearly complete resolution of my 10-year long problem with a zero-second TBUT. . (:^)

[Rory]

Rory - - I think it is possible for a patient to be unaware that his/her corneas are, in fact, compromised to some degree. Anyone with low tear production or abnormal tear film quality runs a good chance of getting stressed corneas. . .The stress may be insufficient to cause erosions or more serious changes, but it is pretty universally understood that defective tear films go along with changes in, for example, the goblet cells that sit pretty closely over the corneas . . .Also, some features of corneal change are not generally measured in a doctor's office. . .It's only the gross abnormalities that most docs feel are worth addressing. . .

I mention this because if you are thinking that Dwelle and the other Dr. Holly drops are not right for you because patients often cite these drops for their remarkable record in healing pretty serious corneal conditions that you don't have, go ahead and try the products anyway. . .To the extent that your corneas could probably get even healthier, and to the extent that improved corneal epithelium can make a TREMENDOUS difference in how dry eye patients feel, you may get some benefits you didn't even believe possible. . .I switched from Restasis to FreshKote and Dwelle at a time when I had no detectable corneal damage; What I got, as a result, was nearly complete resolution of my 10-year long problem with a zero-second TBUT. . (:^)

Thank you all for very informative responses,

I think that I will certainly use either Dwelle/Dakrina every morning...as I see how easy it is now to wipe the residue before it crystallises..

I will then use either Refresh or Nutratear as needed during the day.

I am seeing my regular optomerist next week and will discuss using these drops with soft contact lenses...I think they would be very useful prior to contact lens insertion...but I would also like to use them occasionally whilst wearing them.

I imagine that Refresh and Dr Holly drops can be used together... ie not at the exact same time...but same day?

[Rojzen]

combining drops having very different properties

Good question, Rory, about whether using Dwelle or other high-oncotic pressure drops along with something like Refresh makes good sense. . .

I recently contemplated using Systane and or Bion Tears along with Dwelle or FreshKote, in a regimen that would have alternated all of these, for the purpose of getting ALL of their purported "benefits." I liked the idea of zinc in Systane and the idea of bicarbonate in Bion Tears. . .and it seemed interesting to try to maximize benefits by using a whole panoply of drops. . .

Then Dwelle's effects on me started kicking in, and every time I tried a drop of Systane or anything else, besides Dwelle, my eyes got raw and cold again. . .I basically gave up on the rotation approach, and did great, sticking with Dwelle or FreshKote exclusively. . .

It was really only after this happened that I started studying Dr. Holly's principles carefully. . .After I did that, I decided it could only set me back to use products that were not advancing my eye health the way the Dr. Holly drops do. . .Now I can't say this is true for everyone, but if high oncotic drops help you significantly, it may actually set you back to use anything but these. . .In other words, if your corneas and tear film are normalizing through the use of high oncotic pressure drops, then throwing hypotonic or other non-high-oncotic drops into the picture may be counterproductive. . .

[Rory]

Good question, Rory, about whether using Dwelle or other high-oncotic pressure drops along with something like Refresh makes good sense. . .

I recently contemplated using Systane and or Bion Tears along with Dwelle or FreshKote, in a regimen that would have alternated all of these, for the purpose of getting ALL of their purported "benefits." I liked the idea of zinc in Systane and the idea of bicarbonate in Bion Tears. . .and it seemed interesting to try to maximize benefits by using a whole panoply of drops. . .

Then Dwelle's effects on me started kicking in, and every time I tried a drop of Systane or anything else, besides Dwelle, my eyes got raw and cold again. . .I basically gave up on the rotation approach, and did great, sticking with Dwelle or FreshKote exclusively. . .

It was really only after this happened that I started studying Dr. Holly's principles carefully. . .After I did that, I decided it could only set me back to use products that were not advancing my eye health the way the Dr. Holly drops do. . .Now I can't say this is true for everyone, but if high oncotic drops help you significantly, it may actually set you back to use anything but these. . .In other words, if your corneas and tear film are normalizing through the use of high oncotic pressure drops, then throwing hypotonic or other non-high-oncotic drops into the picture may be counterproductive. . .

Rojzen,

Can you explain very simply the difference behind oncotic and hypertonic drops....and why using both would be counterproductive?

I recently discovered Refresh contacts ...merely because i needed a drop i could use with contact lenses...they and Refresh "soothe and protect" (i think virtually the same thing!)...are the most soothing drop I have found for a while. So whilst I am very keen to give Dwelle and Dakrina a go...I would be loathe to stop using Refresh (especially with contacts).

I have yet to try using Dakrina with contacts, as although it would probably be fine..it doesnt have approval.

[dryeyes2]

using Dr. Holly's drops with other drops- Rojzen

Hi Rojzen,

I posted the question on Dr. Holly's area, but have not heard yet. You mention that using Dr. Holly's drops with other OTC drops might not work well. I do notice that Theratears and Genteal gel are starting to be more drying than before. I didn't have to use them as much when the DHEA was working, but as you know dry eyes are a real balancing act of many things. Like you, I have noticed that when I was wearing my goggles over my glasses my eyes were less dry and when I first started the DHEA I had a good result in 3 weeks and I didn't have to wear my goggles as much. I think looking back, the reason was probably because my corneas were in better shape because of wearing the goggles most of the time. When I cut down on the DHEA drops per doc's instructions, I didn't start wearing the goggles again until recently because I couldn't tolerate the air anymore. So I think this is making a difference why I my eyes are not feeling as good even though my oil glands are producing more oil.

I am up on the DHEA drops again, but I am wearing the goggles most of the time. I am hoping that they are like a bandaid so things can get back to the way they were when I first started the drops.

The DHEA drop has either Tears Naturale (preserved) or carboxymethylcellulose (unpreserved). I am down to 1 drop of Restasis a day, but I want to get off of that if I can. (I have to put in a drop of PF Theratears or similar to tolerate the Restasis now- my doc thinks I may have an allergy to it.) Do you know if Dwelle would work ok with these drops?

Thanks
dryeyes2