Decrease of eye boogers (eye goop) because of nerve damage (LASIK...)

[cvowr]

Hi,

I would like to discuss this issue. I saw some old posts related the dry eye with the decrease of eye boogers (eye goop).

In these posts, I found some reports of those who had drastic decrease of eye boogers after surgery as Lasik.Boogers eye and mucus not be the same, but the eye boogers basically consists of mucus, ie, the decrease of mucus for any reason reflected in decreased of boogers eye. This is a given objective (not subjective), although many doctors do not relate this data with DES because they do not see our eyes when we stand up of bed.

I think that many patients with DES, especially those who suffered damage to the surface of the eye as Lasik surgery, do not produce eye boogers or have considerable decrease of this, right? WHO DID HAVE DECREASE OF EYE BOOGERS? PLEASE, SPEAK UP!

It is known that many cases of dry eye are related to a problem neural corneal surface and/or conjunctiva (?). The cells of the cornea, conjunctiva and other glandular cells of the ocular surface, especially goblet cells makes mucus. These cells, like other glands in the ocular surface (aqueous and lipid) depend nerve impulses of the ocular surface to make the secretion. In this line of reasoning are doing tests with nerve growth factors (NGF).

SEE:http://www.dryeyezone.com/talk/showt...ed=1#post68725

I've never done lasik surgery, but I had an accident with UVC. Next day I woke up with drastic reduction of eye boogers. The first 4 days I did not have any symptoms, beyond the reduction of eye boogers. Gradually were appearing symptoms such as dry eye and photophobia. Currently I almost no produce eye boogers and I've used various eyedrops, but no very effective…I had loss at least of goblet cells (detected by rose bengal - other vivid stainings did not work very well - and impression cytology) and of central retinal function (only detected by the multifocal electroretinogram - mfERG).

Despite these data, I really believe that my DES is mainly due to nerve damage.

Recently here in dry eye zone, found this link a case similar to mine (http://wwww.uvlightburns.com/id17.html). According to this site, the ultraviolet light from broken metal halide lamp can cause neuronal damage (neuropathy of the cornea) and consequently dry eye. I still need to make the corneal confocal microscopy to confirm this.

It seems that I also had secondary alteration of lipid part of my tears, so much that I had little swelling of the eyelid...

Sorry my english...
Hugs ...

[bakunin]

I don't know if after Lasik i had less eye boogers (probably). But for sure i have had almost none eye boogers at least since my dry eye symptoms have started.
I think the vicious cycle of inflammation and unstable tear film has damaged my production of mucin.

When i express my lower eyelids i have an immediate relief (and my vision gets a little blurry for some seconds), so i think i have some lipidic problem either.
I have read that usually the dry eye patient have problem in more than one of the tear film layers. It starts with an aqueous, mucus, or lipidic deficiency, but it evolves to deficiency in others layers.

[fiddle]

I for certain had a huge drop in my "eye boogers" after lasik. It has been a year and a half now and they are barely returning. I had severe DES and use celluvisc every hour and lacrilube 4 times at night. Not sure where this road will take me, but I miss my "eye boogers" as they at least told me eyes were producing moisture.
fiddle

[cvowr]

Interesting! It seems my suspicion is true! People with dry eye due to refractive surgery commonly have the mucin (mucus) deficiency. Here in dryeyezone much is said about aqueous and lipid deficiency, but not mucin deficiency. Bakunin, your hypothesis is interesting. I think that i had a secondary overproduction of lipid layer. It is as if my body tried to compensate the production of the aqueous phase and especially layer mucin.

Hugs

[Hopeful2]

I too notice the absence of morning 'boogers'. I never thought I would miss picking the 'sleep' out of my eyes. . . funny, in a very sad way.

I do believe that the mucin layer is very much disturbed by refractive surgery. I have also wondered if the meibomian glands go into overdrive to try and compensate. I have clear meibum, that is fairly easily expressed. It is unfortunate that it irritates my eyes so much, with frothy bubbles, which cause so much irritation.

I wonder if that is why the MGD treatments seem to have such a poor success rate with post lasik patients?

I wonder too, if there is anyone out there who has been able to reestablish a healthy mucin layer?

Thanks for following this line of thinking with your post.

[cvowr]

Great, Hopeful2! Does there is anyone else (Lasik or not) that shares this? Unfortunately not know if anyone managed to restore the mucus layer (mucin). I'll search yet!

For various reasons I associate my accident (UVC germicidal lamp) with Lasik. I found a very interesting thing that I already suspected, but i could not find this information explicitly. The Lasik and others refractive surgery uses excimer laser, which is a laser with 193 nm wavelength,i.e.,ultraviolet laser type C (UVC). UVC (wavelength range: 280 – 100 nm) can cause mutation of cells and other things that perhaps only God knows!

That is, my thinking was right about UVC and lasik!

It seems that researchers are testing to use other frequencies less dangerous. We know that any laser is potentially dangerous to vision, including those of visible light that children play. There are cases that the excimer laser also burns the retina.

I would like to learn English, I have many difficulties. I need to constantly use online translators. I wondered what is the most usual expression for eye boogers in English. Is it "sleep", "morning boogers", "eye boogers", "gunk eye" or other?

hugs

[spmcc]

Does there is anyone else (Lasik or not) that shares this? Unfortunately not know if anyone managed to restore the mucus layer (mucin). I'll search yet!

My diagnosis is ocular rosacea. I don't get eye boogers either.

A couple of weeks ago I got a head cold and my eyes felt great (normal!). I usually never get colds, so I had never experienced the relief that people have spoken of. It is real - and bizarre - to have eyes that feel perfect again (while the rest of me felt like cr@p!).

I believe the relief is due to mucous production. Or as NeedMyEyes called it - catarrhal symptoms of a cold (see past thread). So I started looking for things that stimulate mucous production. The only things I've found are viruses, bacteria and allergens.

If anyone knows of anything that stimulates mucous production, I'd love to hear about it. I'm very curious about the phenomenon now.

[Hopeful2]

I had more mucus in the morning when I was using castor oil around my eyes before bed. But, I don't think this was a healthy kind of a mucus. It certainly did not give me morning sleep. It was just gloopy stuff clouding my vision.

I always hope that one day I'll wake up with some eye boogers. This would be a great indicator that the eyes have been repairing themselves over night and hopefully getting down a healthy mucin layer.

I don't think enough attention is being paid to the mucin layer.

[Cristi]

Hi
I think the suction ring destroyed my mucus layer in my left eye. During the procedure I felt pain in my left eye...they said they had to apply more pressure because my eye was small so they had to be sure the eye was fixed.... now I have severe dryness in that eye; both eyes are dry but my left is much worse. The ablation of laser was the same for both eyes so.....must be the damaged goblet cells disrupting the tear film.
Have a nice day
Cristina

[cvowr]

This image of this great site (http://www.oculist.net/downaton502/p...v8/v8c002.html) is self-explanatory. Corneal nerves controls conjunctival nerves. Conjunctival nerves controls goblet cells. Goblet cells produces mucus...

[cvowr]

I talked about UVC excimer laser, but apparently you do not consider this as a possibility. Refractive surgeries (Lasik or others) uses Excimer Laser. Execimer is UVC laser (ultraviolet light, subtype C). UVC is VERY MUTAGENIC! In addition to nerve damage, mutation can also be another factor causing dry eye.

[cvowr]

I had more mucus in the morning when I was using castor oil around my eyes before bed

Hopeful2, Castor oil can be a great idea for paliative treatment.

We also need to use the paliative treatments to have the reasonable quality of life and not cause more damage to our eyes.

I'll try to use it.

[cvowr]

I don't think enough attention is being paid to the mucin layer.

Hopeful2,this is very true! Rebecca Petris talks about it in this post:
http://www.dryeyezone.com/talk/entry...y-eye-patients

must be the damaged goblet cells disrupting the tear film.

Cristina, although, you may have had loss of goblet cells, I really do not think this is the main problem, because apparently goblet cells are regenerated by the same stem cells that give rise to conjunctival cells (Conjunctival keratinocytes). I think they are periodically regenerated. Listen to this article: http://jcb.rupress.org/content/145/4/769.full => "Corneal stem cells are segregated in the limbus, while conjunctival stem cells are uniformly distributed in bulbar and forniceal conjunctiva. Conjunctival keratinocytes and goblet cells derive from a common bipotent progenitor".

I have read that usually the dry eye patient have problem in more than one of the tear film layers. It starts with an aqueous, mucus, or lipidic deficiency, but it evolves to deficiency in others layers.

Bakunin, this is quite interesting! Apparently, I has been able to understand that the primary aqueous deficiency certainly will cause at least some mucus deficiency. This mucus deficiency is due to secondary alteration of the conjunctival epithelium (metaplasia) which inhibits the formation of goblet cells.

This phenomenon of change of the epithelium also occurs with other mucous membranes. For example, pharyngeal metaplasia resulting of stomach acid, which inhibits in temporary loss or temporary reduction of mucus-producing cell.

I need to study more about it, but loock this post too:

Damage to the ocular surface reduces the number of goblet cells. This causes evaporative dry eye because the tear film can't wet areas which are mucin deficient.
If your mucin layer is not healthy you will have these areas on your eye which show up in slit lamp test.

I guess if you produce aqueous tears and appear to have healthy Meibum and Meibomian glands then its a mucin problem. However all 3 layers are more intricately linked than this basic assumption. Having poor lipid or aqueous levels will inevitably lead to damage to the goblet cells.

There is a new secretagogue drug supposed to help this layer but it been demoted back to Phase II. (Diquafosol tetrasodium).

[cvowr]

So I started looking for things that stimulate mucous production. The only things I've found are viruses, bacteria and allergens.

If anyone knows of anything that stimulates mucous production, I'd love to hear about it. I'm very curious about the phenomenon now.

Spmcc, It's interesting your idea. My dad had conjunctivitis and had a lot of eye boogers.
I was thinking to get conjunctivitis could be good!

I had a eye boogers increase in the next day after I used autologous serum eye drops (30% autologous serum + 70% methylcellulose 0.5%). This also happened in the next day after I used eye drops 3% chondroitin sulfate. Unfortunately, in both eye drops, the eye boogers was gone the next few days. I need to understand this!

It seems that there aren't many solutions to mucin deficiency,

In this post, http://www.dryeyezone.com/talk/archi...p/t-3210.html?, it's discuss about the use of Diquafasol Inspire and Patanol (Olopatadine), but I still think are being tested.

Does anyone know more about eye drops to mucin deficiency?

[cvowr]

Bakunin, I remember you told me (msn / messenger) on the appearance of dry eye 2 years or 2 ˝ years after lasik surgery. This article may be quite interesting:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract

"Between two and three years They [nerves] Decreased again, so that at three years the numbers remained <60% of the pre-LASIK numbers."

This makes clear that your dry eye should be solely due to Lasik.

This is the explanation because my eyes continue to get worse. Prevent the possible further nerve deterioration is my main goal right now. After I take care of the rest .... You and all Lasik's pacients should think about it: Nothing is so bad that it can not get worse. We must be prepared ... I'm not being pessimistic, but we must be realistic in the face of facts; can worse after ....

What eye drops should I use for this? What eye drops did you use after Lasik?

hugs,

Vinicius