Sheer frustration & a much needed rant

[dianat]

Not sure if any of you share in my feelings, but I'm really struggling with them today.

Yesterday an acquaintance and her husband stood in front of me excitedly telling me that she was going to have LASIK eye surgery to fix...probably among other visual issues...her astigmatism. As you might expect I stopped dead in my tracks and delicately asked her if she was certain about this. I explained that I'm a LASIK veteran and I've personally had serious issues.

I've noted from past conversations that there really is no amount of fast-talking (which I'm quite skilled at) that can really get a person to even remotely understand the trauma I've experienced due to LASIK.

So I'm explaining very simply and casually (so as not to sound like a nut case) how difficult my post-LASIK ride has been. It is curious to me how she has not taken notice in three years of knowing me of the incessant blotting of my very tired-looking eyes, my unusual foam lined goggles, the eye drop use...

But alas, in her blind excitement, all these miserable things I tell her go right over her head. I must add that I do know this woman to be let's say...simple. I would not expect her to do thorough research prior to jumping in to something like this. Nor did I feel it useful in offering her some web links where she could read some real stories that would curl her hair.

In my travels on this site and with what verbal communication I've offered on this topic, I can easily see that the written stories are most definitely more effective in communicating what refractive surgery can mean to a person and his/her family.

But, I did make myself clear to this couple, and my words fell on deaf ears and blank faces. (I can now fully appreciate what the term "fell on deaf ears" actually means.) This woman did acknowledge that she understood why I would be excitable about it since I'd had a bad experience. But she was totally unable to consider that she could be putting herself in danger, and that she had the power not to. Her words were, "I felt it was time to give it a try," as though it were a contact lens or new frame.

I do realize there are plenty out there who walk away from refractive surgery just fine. But my friend was giving me some frightening details about her situation, and today I'm even feeling like I wasn't forceful enough. The most frightening detail is that she is extremely light sensitive. She, in fact, wears tinted eye glasses. They look a bit dark even in the house. Can't say whether she is at risk for dry eye, but if you've ever visited DEZ's sister site, the complications in addition to dry eye are horrific. Light sensitivity prior to LASIK is a really bad sign. Large pupils anyone?

Part of me is just plain angry at this pair for being so flagrantly moronic. If someone had been in front of me prior to my surgery, you can be sure I would have listened and reconsidered. I was so "on the fence" with LASIK, I could have easily been discouraged. I had, in fact, made up my mind not to go through with it when my optometrist talked me into seeing her "guy". Her guy had all the answers.

So I continue to stew. The nasty, stubborn part of me says, well, I hope my friend likes fireworks because if she has large pupils, that's just what she's gonna get. The other part of me says I should tie myself to the bumper of her car next Friday and make sure she misses her appointment.

So as my friends part, they actually had the nerve to chuckle about how they are referring family members to the LASIK facility because they get money every time they do so. I felt this was in rather poor taste since I made it clear how much I'd suffered.

I then patiently asked them if they were really sure this is the right thing. They assured me that the surgery would be happening since they'd already paid for it. Yes, they paid in advance. I guess too many instinctive people were changing their minds.

[Rebecca Petris]

So as my friends part, they actually had the nerve to chuckle about how they are referring family members to the LASIK facility because they get money every time they do so.

Is this legal?

Holy cow.

[Rojzen]

kickbacks????? and obliviousness

I'm with Rebecca in wondering whether kickbacks for LASIK referrals can possibly be legal. . .There are rules governing the legal profession, for example, that would preclude non-lawyers from sharing in fees that relate directly to the provision of professional/lawyering legal services. . .One therefore has to question how doctors could enlist non-doctors to drum up business for them, and then share the proceeds of payments for medical services with these drummers. . .

Even if it's legal, it's nauseating and a testament to the depths to which some aspects of medicine have plunged. . .

More to the point, Dear dianat. . just thinking about you having to listen to the cheery disregard for your enormous suffering causes me real, real pain. . .I wouldn't advocate using that kind of disregard as a reliable litmus test of friendship or kinship. . .but I shall confide that my ex-husband, who watched me plot my own suicide when I first developed SPONTANEOUS severe dry eye, and who knows that LASIK can induce many of the symptoms I have, and WORSE, recently popped in to announce that his new wife has convinced him to get LASIK.

This hurt BIG TIME, but I got him to reconsider by showing him copies of the N.C. newspaper articles on LASIK that our wondrous Ya Gotta Believe has provided to us. . .

[Guest]

Diana

Your story just astounds me, I am sure that the universe has a natural selection process that weeds out the morons from those of us with some intelligence to make informed choices, it is just difficult to understand it sometimes.

God help them is all I can say.

Some people are just non responsive and know everything, all you can hope for is the best for them given their gifted mentality and hope like hell that they are not breeding.

It is very common for a very large practice here in the UK to pay patients for referals. In fact the referrals are quite often sold on ebay so that the referring patient makes a double profit.

I must blame my parents for the moral beliefs they gave me because I find this totally inappropriate however, I am able to sleep with my concious of a night knowing that I have not inflicted this pain on someone else.

Keep your chin up, they had obviously made the decision to have ths surgery anyway and there is nothing you could have done to change their view.

Warm regards

ian

[dianat]

R & R,

I did ask my acquaintances where she was having her surgery done. They couldn't remember the name of the facility, believe it or not. (I wasn't kidding when I said they were simple.) I guess I could call around and ask local facilities how they handle referrals. I have a lawyer friend who curiously enough is coming over for dinner tonight...

Anyway, I failed to mention that just following the nauseating LASIK conversation I just posted about, I met a different "B-list" friend of mine for lunch.

This particular friend is really very kind and had taken some time years ago to listen to me when my eyes were at their worst. She was trying, but I had not felt entirely comfortable sharing with her the emotional impact my situation had taken. (One must be careful when divulging one's choice of antidepressants and "what anxiety really looks like on Diana late at night" when chatting with a neighbor.) Somehow what seems okay for the blasted world wide web is not okay for the neighbors.

So my conservative behavior with her was all about trust really, and the fact that no matter how many times I explained the physiological effects of the surgery to her (the weepiness, the cautery, nerve stuff, burning...) I knew she never really got it. Though well intended, her suggestion to "just ignore it" spoke volumes.

Well, this friend just happened to be the one I met for lunch yesterday following my failure to dissuade another friend from having LASIK. (A nice long visit to the Punctal Pub was what I really needed.) But, with nobody else to whom I could ventilate, I told her my abridged version of the story assuming she'd be a bit sympathetic.

Unfortunately, I endured yet another blow as she quickly offered me a *$#@! lecture reminding me of the people she knows who are just fine years after LASIK...her dad, a friend, blah, blah, blah. Quite honestly, though I am most grateful that those people in her life are okay, I got that old feeling again of insignificance or that I'm some sort of mental case. I DID NOT appreciate any of it. I nearly brought up my sushi.

I'm not convinced that posting all this here is making me feel any better, but nobody locally but my husband really understands all this. I will never stop sticking my neck out in an effort to dissuade potential LASIK candidates. And I will continue to ache...truly ache...every time I meet the next casualty.

[NYer]

D,
I get the same way when I give someone detailed information on something that they should do or not do, particularly medically, and they poo-poo it and just go about doing things the wrong way.
I try to remind myself of the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."
Some people are morons and that's all there is to it. You can only do your best and that's all.
If she ends up with all kinds of post-surgical problems, send her here and we'll jump on her and say "she told you so!"

[Maenad1]

How frustrating this must be for you, Diana. I agree with NYer -- some people just aren't willing to listen to reason, no matter what you do. You've been a good friend to warn her of the potential complications; you've done all you can.

[Lucy]

Diana, we can tell this subject is close to your heart. You did the best you could. Believe me, if YOU couldn't talk anyone out of it, no one could. For those who don't know Diana, she is a speed talker.

This very frustrating when we care about is about to take this leap. I believe they "really don't get it." We are so passionate about our case and they really are on a different wave-length.

When I was having trouble post-lasik, many of my co-workers went on ahead and had the procedure, They worked with me 8 hours a day, saw me putting drops in every 10 minutes day after day, month after month, running to the eye doc, losing time from work etc. I think they believed they were immune to any of this. The final straw was when a vice-president (of the college) said to me one day......"but we were free to have this procedure or not weren't we, Lucy?"........This man and I had our Lasik on the same day, different doctors. He was far-sighted and I was near-sighted. He loved his outcome and I hated mine.

After he rubbed my nose in the "freedom" thing that day, I decided to never bring the subject up again in front of him. Even in speaking to another person about it in front of him. I was suffering and had to ultimately leave my job. He hurt me badly, and I don't think he ever had a clue.

You may have done some good. If not for this lady, someone else. I know that I told my story to our attorney as she was headed to have Lasik with my same doctor. She changed her mind and now, several years later, has not had the procedure.

Keep the spirit, Di. You tried and she is just a "blonde." You can't control others. Lucy

[Rojzen]

intellect lacking where it should be strongest

Lucy, dear one. . .I am disgusted beyond words that a university type attempted to argue, to you, that because one is free either to choose or shun LASIK, one therefore bears responsibility for the maiming that LASIK can cause. . .This is completely illogical and beneath what should be the intellectual capacity of any educated person.

Plain and simple: Inadequate disclosure, outright deception, defective pre-screening, and occasional plain old malpractice in the execution completely NEGATE the consent that a patient gives. . .Consent/choice is not valid, under the law, unless it is made knowingly and voluntarily. . .When consent is induced through representations and conduct that are incomplete and/or misleading, no choice has actually been made. . .

You, Lucy, NEVER consented to what happened to you, and it is contemptible for anyone to suggest that you did. . .Until an "informed" consent form for LASIK describes the utter agony that corneal damage and a disrupted tear function can produce, I, for one, will not be satisfied that the LASIK industry provides any way in which a patient can ever provide a truly informed consent. . .

[clairvoyant]

I can defenitely sympothize with you. It seems like this situation is practically synonyms with one of our general themes. That being that people never seem to understand the disease or for the truly insightful, never fully understand it.

Like your friend I had repudiable arrogance for my health before I realized I was merely human and that my system could be infultrated. Nothing can substitute for being careful and having the upmost respect for the laws of nature.

I try to inform my friends about the disease and have helped my best friend's girl friend steer clear of it She is a wild child who uses contacts. She got a taste of it but thankfully, for her, it was acute.

Did it ever cross my mind to let her go about her business without warning her? Sure, cause she could be a bit spiteful but all in all she was a great friend and no one could possibly deserve this.

I don't know if all the potenial benefits of your friend developing dry eye have crossed your mind but by the context of your post I'm sure if it has you quickly disregarded it. It would be easy for any us to let someone go through that pain for personal benefit. Having a real life friend you can fully relate to is probably something we all seek. Instinctually I'm sure a small piece of us would like others to know the pain and limitations of the disease, especially those that act as such.

We all know that would be the wrong thing to do, though. Dianat, you are doing a very honorable thing (as small as it might seem to some) and I commend you for it.

I'm sure alot of people, unlike you would rather just keep their mouth shut because they don't want to be the only one going through it. You will undoubtly deserve the good karma when it comes back around. Your friend should be truly greatful to have you. And nothing agaisnt your friend of course, I think it is just natural for people to have reckless abandonment when it comes to something they were given and feel entitled to.

[Natalie06]

Amen to that

Diana, on 9/11/06, the last time I was ever in my surgeon's office, I saw 2 women sitting there with their "surgical" bags waiting for Lasik. I was practically aplopletic (?) trying to decide what to do. Speak up? Warn then?
Scare them? Get thrown out of the office? And I was still in the "blame myself" game, reinforced by other people's comments to me that subtley inferred that somehow I was responsible for this "wierd" failure of Lasik. Because heck, based on the marketing and "others" they knew who had it, it shouldn't have been any "big deal".

So I said and did nothing. I think about those 2 women often and wonder how they fared.

You did everything you could and it's now a matter of personal choice. Hopefully she has an ethical and responsible surgeon.

I only wish I had found this board and "met" you and Rebecca and Lucy and all the others first. You've been an enormous inspiration to me.

Natalie

[liz56]

Question for Diana

Yesterday an acquaintance and her husband stood in front of me excitedly telling me that she was going to have LASIK eye surgery to fix...probably among other visual issues...her astigmatism. As you might expect I stopped dead in my tracks and delicately asked her if she was certain about this. I explained that I'm a LASIK veteran and I've personally had serious issues.

Hi, Diana.

I certainly understand your feelings, and you did all that you reasonably could do to make sure that this person understood that what she was going to do was serious; it is surgery, after all.

I have a question about your mentioning that the person has astigmatism. Is that a red flag for you? I've been curious about what astigmatism means, because as a person with EBMD, I have learned that my fluctuating astigmatism is the result of my corneal dystrophy rather than a permanent refractive state of my cornea. In fact, I read about a doctor in Philadelphia who uses PTK on people with EBMD to correct their astigmatism rather than to fix RCE's.

If she has astigmatism that is due to an underlying corneal dystrophy that otherwise may not present much of a problem at all, then she may be in for a really, really hard time. I'm sorry about that.

--Liz

P.S. I'm sorry that people still don't take this surgery seriously. I think that the TV show _Sex & the City_ did a bad thing back in the late 1990s when they had the character Miranda have LASIK. They built it into her storyline so nicely, but when she talked about the actual surgery, she-- who is usually pretty serious and smart-- actually GIGGLED and said, "Flip! My eye!" Even before I had my own non-LASIK eye problems (and was even considering LASIK for myself) or learned from everyone here what LASIK complications can mean, that struck me as being wrong. Just wrong.

[Jade9923]

I've had this conversation with my brother in law. My sister and her son had lasix with no problems. Their other daughter is now ready and I keep mentioning the risks. He would say..well there is risk in everything you do.

I guess it depends upon the nature of the person, how insightful they are, if they are caustious in general, how informed they are, the degree to which the vanity plays in their lives etc. For me, although it is a small percentage that have dry eye hell after the surgery, that would be enough for me to never ever consider it since it is purely an elective surgery. I'm a cautious person in general. A less cautious person wouldn't think for a second it could happen to them and would go on with the surgery most likely with perfect results like most folks.

I understand your frustration. Unfortunately people are not always smart enough, insightful enough or cautious enough and take risks. Thing is, for this surgery anyway, they most likely will be fine. So many times in life a person has to actually experience the problem to understand it in any way.

[dianat]

Dear All,

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. It's a lot of verbage to muddle through; thanks for hanging in there. Lucy is correct about my verbal speed. Fortunately, my fingers can also type as fast as my brain can transmit.

Well, I was waiting for someone to rake me over the coals for implying that everybody I talk to about LASIK should listen to me. Just in case someone is thinking that, please know that I never expected every person I approached about LASIK to even give me the time of day. It's their right to do what they see as appropriate for them. I also know that some of the people I have talked out of LASIK may have walked away from the surgery deliriously happy.

The bottom line is just the agony I feel in failing to dissuade someone from the surgery...all because I truly understand that it's not always perfect and you cannot undo it. I do believe, and someone alluded to it in this thread already, that we inherently have a built-in sense of security. This sense is truly a gift, lest we spend all our time curled up in a ball in a rubber room in chronic fear of our vulnerabilities. It's the reason we can put our babies in cars and drive on the interstate, why we smoke, why we eat lousy food and why we shrug off unnecessary surgery.

And yet, I'm still shocked that when I tell someone that LASIK surgery brought a healthy wife and mother to her knees, I may still get the flippant response, "...well, it's still better than contacts."

All this said, I totally understand the need for people to get out of contacts and away from glasses. It's not only vanity that played into my decision to have LASIK. I was having a horrible time with my babies grabbing at them, I was getting splashed all the time in the pools and other water sports, athletic activities were more difficult with glasses on, I damn near had an anxiety attack in a pool while I was doing laps because I was tiring out and couldn't see... I haven't forgotten how much of a hassle it was.

Liz, to answer your question about astigmatism and whether it was a red flag to me, let me tell you that cutting into healthy tissue for unnecessary surgery is the red flag to me. I must confess I do sort of fake my way through my DEZ existence when it comes to the technical stuff (that's what I have Rebecca for), and would not have known enough about underlying causes of astigmatism to have thought more about my friend's increased risk. I was concerned enough with her sensitivity to light. I do hope she has a skilled surgeon who has screened her properly.

Jade...wow. It won't shock you that I would be beating the living tar out of my sister for promoting LASIK for her daughter, no matter what the family history suggests. It's truly wrong of her to proceed when she has your insights and first-hand knowledge of debilitating dry eye, not to mention the hundreds of other assorted risks.

Your sister and brother-in-law are correct. There is risk in everything we do. But since we're always tempting fate, why throw our children at something unnecessary? I would move mountains for my children, without a second thought step in front of a moving truck if it meant rescuing my child from pain. The LASIK industry is about making money, not about your nieces long-term comfort or vision...it is the moving truck. I do wish your family the best in this decision. Perhaps they need to spend some time digging around on Rebecca's DEZ and Laser My Eye sites. A half hour of both should make them sufficiently sick to their stomachs.

[Jade9923]

OMG I totally agree. I think if I was a lasik casuality maybe it would have made more of an impact. They know I have dry eyes and have lived the dry eye experience with me, but they also know its not from lasik. No no one really knows why I have dry eyes. I'm just your standard freak. Since everyone they know has had successful lasik I'm sure they will proceed. Even though the folks here life a life of dry eye misery because of this surgery, it really is a little known thing about lasik (as you can all atest to) and the majority of the majority of the majority do just fine with the surgery. Your friend on the other hand can see and hear of the horrors of lasik through you and she still is going to proceed. That is just amazing. I know it would flip me out as much as it does you. But there really isn't much else you can do about it. Chalk it up to lasik informed stupidity.